You might think there are enough Gins in the world but a new gin, Tod & Vixen which has just been released by the Vale Fox Distillery in upstate New York has done things a little bit differently. They have created a gin that has been specifically designed to be a good base for a cocktail.
Made in consultation with three top bartenders -- gaz regan, Leo Robitschek, and Jeffrey Morgenthaler - the gin is made with botanicals including juniper and angelica root without chill filtration to “retain these robust flavours”.
We talk to founder Eral Gokgol-Kline about starting the distillery, the adventures of foxes and what makes a good cocktail gin.

Thanks for joining us Eral.

Thanks, Tiff. Thanks for having me up.

Now, where did the name, The Vale Fox, originate?

So, The Vale Fox. We had spent probably about a year for a nice plot of land where we're going to build a distillery. And, after losing a little bit of hope, I came across the piece of land where we are right now, about an hour and a half north of Manhattan. And when we got onto the backside of the land where the distillery currently is, there is a bit of a hill that overlooks the Hudson Valley and just by chance, there was a couple of foxes there too. And I'd been playing around with some animal names for the distillery, but I guess then and there it was like okay, we're at the beautiful view of the Hudson Valley, a lovely piece of land and there are foxes. And we went with The Vale Fox, instead of The Valley Fox … just a bit of an old English word for valley.

The gin that you've released is called Tod and Vixen. I assume that is also extending the fox metaphor a little bit?

Absolutely. We want to keep in in the same genre. Really what we were going for is having a bit of a different personality under The Vale Fox. A little bit more playful, little bit more fun and so, as you'll see on our bottle we have a picture of a tod and a vixen. Male fox and female fox and decided to name after our two characters there.

And, the name also has a date at the end? What is the date represent then?

Yes. So after starting this endeavour. This endeavour really started with a night over some cocktails, with my brother actually, while I outlined the whole idea I had for this and using him a great sounding board. We put in on the back of a napkin and about a year after that, through some genealogical research, we found we had a Dutch ancestor who came to the United States in 1651, arrived in what was then New Amsterdam, hopped up into the Hudson Valley and then through the Mohawk valley and on October 19, 1651, was given a license to distil. And is one of the first licenses to distill in the United States at that time, next to an operating brewery. And while I don't know, I'm going to go with the fact that he was making jenever because he was Dutch and it was 1651.

How extraordinary. Now, you said that you had, this all came about over cocktails with you brother. What put this idea into your head in the first place?

Honestly, I been in finance for a long time as some of the stories start and I moved back. I used to live in London. I moved back to the United States and was really playing around with what I wanted to do. I was a little jaded on finance at that time. Wanted to do something a little bit more real, and it just kind of …through some connections I had in London. I was able to talk to some people who were in the industry for decades. A gentleman by the name of Jim Swan, who is behind Kavalan whiskey, over in Taiwan. And when I got into contact with him, and give him the idea of gin American single malt distillery, he loved the idea. And when he was on board, I think it was meant to be.

Interestingly, having come from London, where the gin boom has been prolific. The States didn't really hit the same degree?

Not yet. I'll say that.

So you think it's still coming?

I think the United State is still discovering gin, absolutely. I think you look around and while the United States is having a big bourbon ride and general whiskey renaissance, let's say? I think from a white spirit standpoint, I think they're still discovering gin and how great gin is in cocktails. And you can see that, not only in places like New York and San Francisco, of course. But even in pockets like Florida and down in Nashville, which makes me really excited because I love gin.

You describe the gin that you've brought out, as being one that's being made specifically for cocktails. What's that actually mean?

So when I started with the idea of making a gin. Instead of saying, "Okay, let's make a gin that we like." I started to look at the market, I guess it's a little of my analytic brain working at that time. And when we realized at that time that it was 96% of gin that's consumed in cocktails or more, it was kind of a no-brainer for me to say you know, we really need to approach this from the cocktail That's where the end user is. That's what the end-user is enjoying it in and if we don't have an idea of how gins work properly in cocktails. Then we're really not doing ourselves a service.
So we approached Gaz Regan, who was really excited about the idea of working with us on, working from the cocktail backwards on the gin. And he brought together a team, including Jeff Morganthaler and Leo Robitscheck. And, along with our master distiller, we kind of set about thinking initially about what kind of gins work really well in cocktails? What cocktails are we going to think about when we're making this gin? And then, after narrowing that down, started to work backwards to a certain point. And then we started developing the gin, once we had that idea of how we're going to approach, making it from the cocktail backwards.

Now did you know Gaz Regan before this process started?

I did not know. So, it's all about the team right? So we were able to bring on Arthur Shapiro who's been an amazing advisor over the years from the beginning really. He's one of the first people to come on board along with Jim Swan. And he used to be a Senior Vice President at Seagrams. And when he came on board, he knew Gaz from projects that they did previously. And so, through him, we were able to meet Gaz and he loved the project. Loved the idea and I guess the rest is history.

Having three such well-known international bartenders on your team is fairly amazing. What was the process in terms of, how they assisted you with this?

So, Roselyn Thomson, who's our Master Distiller, met with Gaz really at the very beginning, and me. And like I said, we narrowed everything down to the types of gins that we think work really well, what are the different botanicals and tasting notes that we think are going to do well. After that, what we did is, we actually made a library of over 75 single distillers of each botanical that we thought that we'd want to use. Not only of each botanical but also each growing region for that botanical. That we could get our hands-on. So something like angelica root, we had done Poland, Germany and Bulgaria. Just to see how those differentiate themselves.
Yes. So, and it's amazing at how different not only the botanicals behave in a distillate form, but also how they behave in a growing region. So almost, I'd hate to use the words but terroir, but yes, the growing region and the soil everything has an impact on the flavours that you get from the botanical, which translates into our gin.
And once we'd done that, we started to send samples of not only gins we had made but also single distillates to each of the three bartenders and got independent feedback. As you can imagine, they're very well known bartenders, but they're still individuals with their own palates. So we got, sometimes, similar responses, but more than often, very different responses from each of them.
Which worked really well for us, because we were really able to see how different palates react to different flavour profiles that we were sending them. And, it helped our Master Distiller really hone in on a gin that is never going to be able to appease every palate out there, but we understood that from the beginning, but that I think really nails together with the aspects from each of the feedbacks that we got from the three bartenders. And then ultimately, we knew we hit it on the head when Gaz called me up one night and pretty much was saying that, "This gin rocks. This is it. You guys got it."
And you know, that's when we, we still did some tinkering after that, just to make sure that we were being able to produce this consistently. But we had hit the thing that flavour profile that we wanted.

Now you talked about Roselyn Thomson, your Master Distiller, now, she used to work with John Dewar and Sons. How did she end up getting involved?

So, it was really ... I had wanted to get somebody who knew... Now the equipment that we were going to use, was familiar with the equipment that we were going to use and so, we knew that the equipment we bought is from Scotland. So we knew we wanted to have somebody who'd work on that equipment. And so, we were able to get in touch with her actually through the owner of that company. And it was a bonus because I also wanted to promote female distillers. Because I think, as an industry, it's very important to support the female distillers that are out there.
So we really to support female distillers and it just worked out that out of all the candidates that we met, she was the best fit for us. And we were able to get her over. I still don't know why she left the John Dewar or Bacardi, who owns John Dewar and Sons, for a start-up in the United States. But I'm very happy that she did and I think she's very happy she did at this point as well.

Yes. Well it's a little bit of adventure in doing that I think as well.

Absolutely.

The majority of people, when they start a distillery, go out and learn everything that they can about distilling so that they can do it themselves. But you have actually stepped back and gone, "No, I actually want people who have a vast in that experience.” It's a bit of an unusual way to approach it.

Honestly, you know I have full respect for anybody who goes out and learns to distil. But, to a certain extent, you need to also have a little bit of artistry and a little bit of science. And I wasn't convinced that I was the right person to bring that to the table for The Vale Fox Distillery. You know, my strength didn't lie in actually distilling the liquid. So I knew from the beginning that we had to bring in people who had been doing this for years and had proven themselves able to do it. Not only from a day in and day out distilling standpoint but from the palate and the creation of the liquid in the bottle.
So for me, it was kind of a no brainer you know. There's a lot of cliches out there about how the team makes, it's really important and makes the company, but that's something that we really stuck to when we wanted to have people who not only work really well together but were excellent in their respective specialities. So Ros is an amazing distiller and has a proven track record in Scotland. And the bartenders have a proven track record in what they do and I think it was a great melding of those two sides.

Okay. Now, there are a lot of gins on the market. What made you think that there was the need, for another?

I don’t think there were really that many people who really approached it the same way we did. Again, we thought about the cocktail first. So it wasn't really, do we need another gin? It was more of, ‘can we really think of a cocktail and make something that enhances the consumer's drinking experience’? Whether we call it a gin of flavored vodka, it really didn't matter to me. It was, can we do something that enhances that cocktail experience? It just happened to be that I think gin was the ideal way to do that. And after talking to people like Gaz Regan and obviously Ros, I think they reiterated and strengthened that thought process in me.
So, you're right. One of the things we tell people is, "Oh my god, here comes another gin on the market." But, honestly, I think we're a little different in the way we went about thinking of the consumer, of the consumption of liquid first and then working ourselves backwards. And through a few of the things we've done, we've arrived at something that you know, is what I think, works really well in cocktails. But is a little different than you're traditional Beefeaters and Tanqueray's of the world.

Now explain how it is different?

Sure. So, from a technical standpoint, you know, we had eight botanicals. So we kept it quite simple in the botanical side. We macerate our botanicals in our neutral spirit before we distil. So we do get some more extraction in certain flavours, that I think was crucial on some of the more heavy cocktails, some of the more vibrant cocktails, like the Negroni in my mind. You are going against Campari, which is not easy. In the grand scheme of things. But then once we distil, one of the things we also wanted to do is … if we're putting those flavours into the product … we don't want to then, strip them out. So we made the decision to non-chill filter. Which I think, is somewhat polarizing to certain people, because it makes the gin slightly more unstable. But we've been able to handle that through having a little bit higher alcohol content, which actually stabilized the gin. And I'd rather have a little bit more alcohol content, to stabilize the gin, which also bartenders seem to react really well to, because they like mixing at those levels that we're at in the high 40’s. But also, we're keeping the flavours that we really wanted within that gin in there because we did try to filter it. When we chill filter, it was dropping so much of the aroma and the nose off of it mainly, that we weren't as happy with the end product.

So how are you filtering it if you're not doing it with a chill filter?

We are actually filtering it mechanically. So we go through just filter paper, different pour veracity of filter paper and at different pressures. So we do have some filtering happening. Obviously, it's removing a lot of the long-chain fatty acids, not to get too technical on it, that causes the dilution of the product when you shock it with cold. We are removing those, but not the same extent that we do what the chill filter.
So instead of shocking it with cold and then going through the filter paper, we actually just put it through different layers of filter paper to give us, what I think, is a better result at the other end.

Gin can be used in so many different ways, whether it be very very light cocktails or heavier ones. How did you create a gin that went both sides?

Honestly, I don't think that anybody's going to like it in every cocktail that they, and just to be a 100% transparent honest. It is one that works really well in a negroni, but honestly, it works really well in a gin and tonic. Some of my family members love it in bee's knees and one of them adores a Singapore sling. So it's amazing at the versatility of people's palates and their enjoyment of the gin I would say. But what we wanted to do, when we worked ourselves backwards, we did actually have the negroni in mind for the very beginning part of it saying, "Okay, for me a negroni is a very kind of, classic but also elegant cocktail. Its ratio is really nice and its tones are really nice." So, we had that at the starting point. We worked ourselves back from the negroni, and by doing so, it's a vibrant gin. It does have to go against Campari and Sweet Vermouth and so, we do have wonderful vibrant citrus notes in there. That balance really well with the juniper. But one of the things that we also added, that I think is what gives it another dimension, is South African red rooibos tea. And we did that because when we got the feedback from the bartenders, from Gaz and Jeff and Leo, the balance was getting there, they really enjoyed the balance. The citrus was the correct citrus, but we were missing a little bit of dimensionality and a little bit of depth in the liquid. And the earthiness and almost woodiness of the red rooibos tea is a great compliment to the vibrant aromas that we had in the gin to begin with. So it kind of, lets it work not only negroni but that earthiness amazingly to me at least, works really well in a gin and tonic as well. In a martini? It depends on how dry you want your martini. To tell you the truth.
You know, and that's the thing. Everybody's pallet's different as I said with our bartenders. The feedback was different from three of the most renowned bartenders in the world. And in some instances, we had three very very different comments. On the exact same product.

That must have been hard to reconcile a little bit?

Of course, but I think we were able to find the right kind of balance between what everybody was saying in the end.

Being so cocktail specific, were there particular cocktails that you created for the gin?

We actually thought more about how people drink their cocktails, or what cocktails people drink on a more ongoing basis. So, gin and tonic obviously make the majority of what people drink, with gin. Negroni is second, from what we can see in the market. At least in the United States and parts of Europe. And depending on where you are, obviously, that changes.
So we focused more on classic cocktails and we really want, now let the bartenders and the mixologists use their creativity going forward. We had had some things created, but we haven't released them because I really think that the creativity within the bars of the world is so great. I'd love them to use this canvas and come up with creations that we couldn't have even begun to think about.

Now you talk about bartenders, other than your three-star bartenders, what is the reaction been in the industry?

We've actually seen a whole bunch of bars in New York City and in surrounding areas and I must say, I was a little nervous, to begin with. Even though we had our three stars, superstar bartenders, I was a little nervous to see how other people react and I been extremely, pleasantly surprised. We've been in bars where you know, there are bartenders who tried and we don't even have to convince them. They love it. We're already in a few bars in New York City, people are loving playing with it and I think because it is vibrant, it is a big gin. And it is a vibrant gin, I think people are really enjoying it.
And it is still, what I consider, a gin. And I mean that in the most humble way in that, you know, to me gin should still be predominantly Juniper. And so that was very important for us as well, is to have a gin that's still was a very recognizable gin. Even though it is more vibrant, it is bigger and has a different mouthfeel. And by that I mean, because we don't chill filter it, it does have a little heavier mouthfeel and that's one of the things people have been reacting to the most. Not only the aromas and the flavours that we have in there but the mouthfeel that we've achieved with this. Given that it is a little than what traditional gins are.

If someone has already had a favourite gin, why do you think, they should put that aside and try Tod and Vixen?

So, it really comes down to the flavour profile that we've achieved and the mouthfeel. I really do think that people should just give it a try because they will be pleasantly surprised. You know, I don't think there have been that many people to think of the cocktail when they're making their gin. And so, in any cocktail, it will work really well.

Speaking of which, if someone buys a bottle and brings it home, how would you recommend that they first use it?

That's a tough one. That's a tough one, I mean, I personally would go with something that they're very familiar with, because that's where they're going to see the difference and the impact that the gin has. It's a little risky because obviously, they're so focused on the flavour profile that they enjoy, but for me, when we were developing it, I was trying it in negronis, which happens to be one of my favourite cocktails and in gin and tonics. And that's how I was consuming it initially because I was so familiar with those flavour profiles, I'd been drinking them my entire adult life. And so it was really important for me to gage it against everything else I knew. Ever since then, I branched out really well, but I think that's how I would try it initially.

Now talk to us a little bit about the label. The foxes that are on there are, I would say, almost art deco in the way that they're drawn. Is there a story behind that?

Yes and no. I mean ultimately, it was really a decision that was made as we were developing the label, because we were talking about cocktails. We were constantly talking about cocktails and you know, my mind kind of went to the era when cocktails were just coming in and people were having cocktails before dinner. Drinks before dinner? And to me, that was the 20s and I also just love the aesthetic of the 20s.
So I thought it really fit well with what we were trying to produce and we went with … she’s in a nice little era-specific dress and we had to give them a formal look. They also appear in our first-ever graphic novel, looking a little different.

Now talk to us about the graphic novel, because it's unusual for someone to bring out something like that when they release a gin.

Sure. You know, I think it was just Todd and Vixen had become kind of buddies to me and it's gotten to the point where they'd gotten a personality, in my mind. They are who they are and as we were developing that and developing their personalities, we really wanted to let the consumer in on what we were thinking. What we were doing. And to us, it was a really creative way to do that was to give them a story, how we see Todd and Vixen. Because when you pick up that bottle, and you look at Todd and you look at Vixen, they've been personified there. We had an inner working on what those personalities were, and I think you know, if I was picking up that bottle, I'd love to see that creation process. And one of the ways we can let people into that creative process was to put those personalities out there.
Arthur Shapiro wrote the story and we had graphic artists draw up the wonderful artwork, which is watercolour, which I think works really well with the style that we were trying to tell. And yeah, it's on our website. So I encourage everybody to get out there and ready it. It's a wonderful 10 pages short little graphic novel.

You mentioned earlier that you would be looking at an American single malt? Will you be approaching that in the same way?

No, the American single malt is a little different. We're a little bit more traditionalist, Everybody thinks single malt and then their brain goes to scotch. And I think that it needs to be broadened and you know, you look at Japan and that is an amazing place for single malt now. You look at Taiwan, you look at Tasmania. Tasmania has amazing single malts. And you look at India, India is making wonderful single malts. And I think that the United States was focusing a lot on bourbon and rye as they do because that is national drinks. But I do think that the United States has the right climates and the right ability to produce an exceptional single malt as well. And to me, single malt is one of those things that, like a whiskey, has more complexity than some of the other American whiskeys. So I thought, with the United States and with the Hudson Valley in particular, which was the breadbasket of the United States in the very, very beginning. Actually back in the 1650s, when my great-great-multiple-greats-grandfather came to be. Has the bones to produce an amazing American single malt.
But we're really producing that as more of a sipping drink, obviously, cocktails would be wonderful as well. But our approach is more of making an exceptional single malt. An exceptional global single malt, really. And we're being a little bit more traditionalist, but we're also pushing the envelope, making some trials and errors on that as well. Especially around how we mature it and what kind of casks we mature it in and the methods that we're using to mature. And by that, I don't really mean, short maturations or small barrel. It's more about using heat along the way.
One of the things that really got me excited, is the ability to step back and think about the industry and the methods that the production is happening around the world. And then, try to really cherry-pick and see what works and what doesn't and use it in the United States. You know, high-heat ageing hasn't been around that long and one of the things that attracted me to Jim Swan is his use of it, in his really in pioneering of it, in Taiwan by necessity. But you see how amazing that is with Kavalan.

Don't you lose a lot?

We do lose a lot through angel share, so you know that is something that, from a business standpoint isn't awesome. But, you know, from an end product … If it's going to produce the best product that we can, it's something that I think we should try. And I think we should be trying it, while also using different types of casks, some special casks that have been reconditioned to give a little bit of different profile at the end with our single malt. Instead of just using ex-bourbon or using ex-sherries and x-Ports, which we, of course, do. We're also using some methods and some casks, that have been reconditioned from wine, from rum, etc. and it just adds another layer of dimensionality to it. And really what it is, is we're really trying to make sure that we are pushing as much as we can, but pushing intelligently.
When we say we're still going to try something, what happens is there is normally a hypothesis behind what we're trying to achieve and what we think we're going to get. And we were proven wrong, as we should be, as we go along and we learn from our mistakes, which we need to make. But that's how we learn and that's how we push the envelope forward. But we will never put anything into production unless we have some actual evidence that it does make a better drinking experience at the end.

Now let's take things back to Todd and Vixen. What are your plans with that brand? I suppose the next thing would be distributed throughout the US?

Yes and no. I mean yes, we already talked to different areas of the United States to go into, but I guess it's my background speaking but, I tend not to think of things too much as a country by country. I'm more global and I'm more metro area. By that I mean, you think of just New York. New York City is a very different beast than Albany, then Rochester, New York. Which is three different cities in the state of New York.
So for us, it's really, we think of things globally, you know. We're talking to people in South Africa, we're talking to people in Russia, randomly. And you know, we're not just thinking about pushing this only in the United States, export is definitely on our mind. And if there's a market that makes sense, that we can enter and that we think Todd and Vixen can add to that market and can be successful in that market, we will definitely love to be there.

Now, who is your ideal consumer?

I would love to get somebody who loves cocktails and who is adventurous. I guess that's really somebody who wants to discover something new. It doesn't matter who they are. Obviously, there's no ... we're not looking for an age group and I think that it's really, every age group, every gender, every type of person …just somebody who really enjoys discovering new things, enjoys cocktails. But you know, if somebody wants ... I have a friend who drinks Todd and Vixens neat with a wedge of orange. You know, to each their own. Ideally we're really probably going for those people who love to try new foods. Love to try new experiences and love to try new cocktails.

All right Eral, well look, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us.

Absolutely.

And if people want more information, they can go to your website, which is www.thevalefox.com?

Yes, www.thevalefox.com

Yes, and see what Todd and Vixen are up to.

Yes. They can absolutely. You can see what Todd and Vixen are up to.
Thank you very much Tiff, I really appreciate it.